Curse

Navaros · May 02, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I feel for you, Crisis. It sucks that Anet ruined the 12vs12 at Retail.

The one good side of this is that it teaches you to always check game forums before buying a Retail version of a game to see if they wrecked anything in Retail and/or new problems crop up.

Many people like myself are on the fence about buying/not buying Chapter 2, and knowing that "12vs12" is really just a series of 4vs4 certainly does not encourage me to want to buy Chapter 2.

That's a good thing about forums, you can get the info first before diving in for the purchase.

dag_nefzen · May 02, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I quite like the 4 man squad feel to the 12v12 battles, but I wish you could maintain the full 12 person communication/party window. Being able to divide a team up into squads would be useful and could carry over to GvG too, (especially when using a split team) each squad having an independant target but still being able to have global team options. I doubt we'd see something like this in the near future though.

I'd also like the option to choose your allies... it'd make the PvP side more serious and make specialized holding or capping squads a real strategic advantage.

It hasn't spoilt my enjoyment of the Alliance battles though... I still find them fun, just a bit like team arena x3.

Lampshade · May 02, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I wish you could have 12 people in one group so you could actually stratagize and have fun with your guild. Right now if you make a great group, TS, planned build, you can roll the other teams but your teammates can ruin it. All guild-groups please.

Mustache Mayhem · May 02, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

well I guess you could look at it that way if that was the selling point.. but just the 2 extra slots and access to the new areas/skills on your old character make it worth the upgrade imo

Former Ruling · May 02, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Theres always gonig to be angry souls.

When it was FPE 12vs12 all you heard was people maoning about Leavers, and the "unfairness" of Rader Range team help (like the orders).

Now all you hear people maoning about is to change it back to the way it was during the FPE...

This kind of goes with what TRUEgamer said. When you look at Forums/go to stores/etc you see mostly rants, but for everyone of these ranting threads, theres about 5k people that love the game.

Public access, nameless mediums are NEVER a good place to judge whether soemthing is good or not. If people are the slight bit in a bad mood they wont hesitiate to post a thread like this.

You just gotta ignore it.

Someone that uses email to contact them them is about 3x more relevent than a random fansite thread, and someone that personally contacts them is about 10x more relevent to their decisions than someone that emails them.

lishi · May 02, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

i will give you a though :

People who complain will try to make their complain get visibility AKA they post on topic.

People who dont complain dont have particular reason to make a post in a topic AKA they MAY tell they are happy for changes.

Taigech · May 02, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Well, I had a lot of fun with my guildmates in 12v12 during the FPE.

I think Anet will really have to change the 12v12 though, because this is really, really, friggin' hard on monks (like me

)

I see some people mentioned they split up the groups so there aren't mass leavers, but it could also be because of some spells being too powerful (Aegis, Heal Party).

What Anet should do is have your 4-person team at the top of the list, then a break in the party window, then the rest of the 8 people. You should be able to communicate with everyone, but any mass/party spells you cast will only affect your 4-person group.

example: party menu
-----------------
| party member 1|
| party member 2| This way, it will make it a lot easier for monks to select
| party member 3| a party member thats in need, but isn't in the same
| party member 4| 4-person group in there.
-----------------
| group member 1|
| group member 2|
| group member 3|
| group member 4|
| group member 5|
| group member 6|
| group member 7|
| group member 8|
------------------

SoumaAyame · May 02, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

The 12v12 from the Factions Preview Event was also a feature I was really looking forward to... but now that you cannot even communicate with your teammates or see which squads are in trouble, it really leaves a feeling of strict isolation for your particular squad.

linh · May 02, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I have to agree that the 12 vs 12 battle in FPE is lots of fun comparing to the current AB. Taigech's idea is very good and can solve the problem.
But you guys should think that Faction came out only few days, and some people haven't had it yet. So lets give ANet time to get and read feedbacks. I know they always listen to gamers, so I believe that they will fix it and improve gameplay to satisfy us.
Just calm down and give them more time.

TRUEgamer · May 03, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taigech

This would be an outstanding way to fix 12v12. The best, infact. It distinguishes your party from the rest, while still showing your entire team.

List the other group members as allies, just like pets! One thing I noticed is that all pets are shown for the entire team. I only had two rangers in my group (two pri, none sec), and my group showed three pets.

Omnidragon42 · May 03, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

One thing that gets me is why did they add support for hotkeys to target player 9-12, if they took away the 12 person party list?

I loved 12v12 during the FPE, I got two people into guildwars based on that alone. I like factions, I'm going to continue playing it, new pve and the 2 new classes to spice up HA and GvG, but it would be awesome if they changed 12v12 back to the way it was (but still require forming a 4 man party, less leavers that way). Mostly I just want the 12 man party list back.

Stabber · May 03, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I highly doubt Anet is going to change the alliance battles now, after release.

Vote with your wallet.

Mr_T_bot · May 03, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Theres always gonig to be angry souls.

When it was FPE 12vs12 all you heard was people maoning about Leavers, and the "unfairness" of Rader Range team help (like the orders).

Now all you hear people maoning about is to change it back to the way it was during the FPE...

Because three 4 man teams sure stops people from leaving...
I never saw a single person complain about party efect skills. And I am getting tired of Arena Net changing things on release day. That is deceptive and practically false advertising.

Red Locust · May 03, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Full 12-man parties wouldn't work. People would eventually get the idea that heal party, aegis, order of pain and warriors will dominate everything, and you'll get most teams made up of a combination of the above. Everyone already knows the power of IWAY, now imagine infinitely respawning warriors with constant heal parties...yeah, not a pretty picture is it?

Lugosi · May 03, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Full 12-man parties wouldn't work. People would eventually get the idea that heal party, aegis, order of pain and warriors will dominate everything, and you'll get most teams made up of a combination of the above. Everyone already knows the power of IWAY, now imagine infinitely respawning warriors with constant heal parties...yeah, not a pretty picture is it?

Well, may I ask what exactly the problem with it would be?
In random/team arenas the mentioned "dominating" skills work for a 4-man-party, in HA and GvG they work for 8-man-teams, so the logical next step is that they also work for 12-man-teams.
Or would you want to split HA and GvG teams into two 4-man teams too, just like the alliance-battle-teams, for the same reason?

The only real problem with the "old" 12 vs 12 was, as far as I could tell, that you never knew what you'd have in your party in the end - maybe not even a single monk.

Eviance · May 03, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

BTW thanks for showing the example... I personally as well as my husband have thrown out this idea over and over. That is exactly what we are talking about and what needs to be done.
However ya might want one more tab on bottom somewhere for pets, just a thought that someone else mentioned - it would suck for a monk in a hurry to save people to get confused between a dieing pet and a dieing person... Monks don't see names just health bars =P

Heal party and Aegis does NOT affect allies! If they are not within the same roster as you like before it will NOT HEAL THEM! It would take individual heals for that!

And it dawned on me why people are so dead set against Aegis and Heal Party - it drags on the battle and makes it harder to kill people. I don't want to hear the exuses that it was unfair because that just isn't the case if you have a monk on both teams or at least the availabilty to have a monk on both sides with those skills and you don't utilize it!

If you don't like that they drag out the battle longer than you are willing to sit there and spend fighting for it then say so but don't use the lame exuse that it is unfair.

Overpowered and caused the battles to last too long [PERIOD].

Bowman Artemis · May 03, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taigech

I see some people mentioned they split up the groups so there aren't mass leavers, but it could also be because of some spells being too powerful (Aegis, Heal Party).

What Anet should do is have your 4-person team at the top of the list, then a break in the party window, then the rest of the 8 people. You should be able to communicate with everyone, but any mass/party spells you cast will only affect your 4-person group.

example: party menu
-----------------
| party member 1|
| party member 2| This way, it will make it a lot easier for monks to select
| party member 3| a party member thats in need, but isn't in the same
| party member 4| 4-person group in there.
-----------------
| group member 1|
| group member 2|
| group member 3|
| group member 4|
| group member 5|
| group member 6|
| group member 7|
| group member 8|
------------------

Taigech for president!!!

misthero · May 03, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Please post your opinion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3021356

SAQ · May 03, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Anet didn't trick you!

Everything in FPE was BETA, Anet didn't say what you see on FPE will be what Faction will turn out to be! Please understand.

But I do agree, adding 8 people in the ally will be a lot more helpful for monks and entering Alliance battles by yourself is good. There are so many people willing to go into Alliance battles, so it's not hard to find a group! Since so many people are eager that they will get 3 others to join and GO.

Ken Dei · May 03, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRUEgamer

Personally, I think that the people who are complaining are the ones sniffing glue.

There's a pretty common statistic you tend to learn well when you work retail... angry people have a tendency to bitch and moan roughly 10 times as much as happy people will praise what makes them happy.

The PVE is very different in Factions... well, not so much really different but it seems new and has a very fresh feeling to it. It's almost like Prophecies was made for the sake of making it, and after figuring out the limitations and capabilities of the engine and environment they're using, ArenaNet has pushed those limitations and are showing what they are really capable of.

Granted, they made some changes to the Alliance battles that can make it somewhat frustrating, but not only can you expect them to alter those changes in the future, but the changes were made in earnest - less people ragequit. I only see ragequitting when the team fails to even hit 3 captured shrines at some point in the match.

The PVE though is very, very good. It's intense and deters from the general hack-and-run routine everybody mastered in Guild Wars. Additionally, the challenge missions turn Guild Wars into something totally different - they're like a mix of Sven Coop (a Half Life mod that pits players against singleplayer enemies) and Invasion (an Unreal Tournament 200X gametype that pits players against attacking waves of AI). It bridges PVP-styled group combat with the singleplayer storyline.

Though I will say that the mission quantity of Factions is relatively short-coming (about 60-70 percent of the size of Guild Wars), the titles system gives gamers extra incentive to explore and utilize every single aspect of the game, even down to capturing all of the elite skills and uncovering every corner of the maps.

I personally think that Factions is a dramatic improvement to an already outstanding game, and I look forward to chapter three.

Ok then explain the logic behind changing it when during the FPE, just about everyone had praise for the way it was done? Seriously, what statistic do you use to shoot yourself in the foot?